Blackness is Not a Monolith Transcript

Verbatim transcription for: Blackness is not a Monolith; discussion between Laura Edmondson (@laura.edmondson) and Brittany Leavitt (@bleavitt8)

Transcription completed by Jackie Ballard (@pepitaonfire) (If this info is published to a website or social media, please do not include my name. IG handle only, please. Thank you!)

Total time: 59:58

[BEGIN]

Laura Edmondson [LE]: Hi. Hi, everyone. Welcome, I’m just trying to get my camera set up. Thank you all for coming. [LAUGH] Off to a great start, clearly. [LAUGH] Okay, nobody touch the camera. [LAUGH] Hey, Sam, what’s up? Hey, everyone. Thanks for joining, I think Brittany just popped in. All right. 

Brittany Leavitt [BL]: [LAUGH] [INAUDIBLE]

[LE]: All right. [LAUGH] Off to a great start. 

[BL]: [LAUGH] Yeah, totally. Cause I was like, trying to set up some on, like, a tripod but it kept knocking over and I was like all right, I may have to use a hot sauce bottle this time. [LAUGH]

[LE]: I have a bunch of boxes stacked up and a tiny little tripod, but I don’t have the [INADUBLE] for my phone, so I just have my phone, like, leaned up against the tiny tripod, we’ll see if this works, I don’t know. 

[BL]: [LAUGH] Nice. [LAUGH]. Right, this is how you know we don’t do Facebook Live, like often. Hey, Brittany B., my co-teacher Zin, and [INAUDIBLE]. So many great people that we’re seeing. Hello everyone. 

[LE]: [CROSSTALK] Oh my gosh, there’s so many people on right now. 

[BL]: [LAUGH] I originally wanted to be set up outside, but it’s raining. And so, this is weird because I’m like, people are in my space. [LAUGH] 

[LE]: I hear ya, [INAUDIBLE] my space [INAUDIBLE] outside in the parking lot, but it’s very hot out there, so [LAUGH].

[BL]: [LAUGH]

[LE]: Cool, should we kick things off? Do you wanna do an intro? 

[BL]: Oh, sure, sure. Um, yeah, wow, there’s so many. Hi, everyone, welcome, um, to our conversation today, um, Black is not a Monolith. And for those who are wondering what that idea is, um, this conversation’s kind, is really based about how our connection, not only to the outdoors, but just as navigating as Black people, how we don’t navigate all in the same way, all of our stories are very different. And really breaking that down, especially in the outdoor industry where we always get, be assumed to be lumped sum into one perspective. So, we’re gonna break that down in our [LAUGH] perspectives as well. But we wanted to first off give a huge shout out to Aman. And if you don’t know who Aman is, he is an amazing climbing coach and also is the creator of Beast Fingers. So if you’re someone who’s looking for some great equipment for training, head over to Beast Fingers and shout them out. He created our, um, like, display of graphic design [LAUGH] for this event. Um, he’s really great at that, he’s an amazing, amazing person, so please go check out his work, um, support his, um, amazing business, because it’s a Black owned business and we’re still celebrating everyone else. 

And then also, we wanted to let everyone know, um, for like, the donations, we’re deciding to split the donations to different perspective organizations that we wanna support. Um, so, yeah, I dunno, Laura, if you wanna add anything to that before we do more intros. 

[LE]: Yeah, so we are, um, crowdfunding this project that we’re doing, this conversation, um, so not only paying for mine and Brittany’s time, but then we have also committed to donating a portion to, um, yeah, just individuals or organizations that we feel could use the money right now. So if you wanna hit us up on Venmo @BrownGirlsClimb, um, I’m pretty sure that’s our handle on Venmo, @BrownGirlsClimb. 

[BL]: Yeah.  Yeah. 

[LE]: Um, five to ten-dollar suggested donation, but totally up to you, anything is welcome. Um, yeah, as Brittany said, we’re just gonna kinda talk about the idea of Blackness, and how we’re not all the same. Um, we’re similar in some ways, but, you know, we’re not a monolith, as she said. Um, should we do personal introductions real quick? 

[BL]: Yeah, we’re, we should. Um, our name, um, land that we are occupying, um, and maybe our, climbing? Maybe, like, favorite climbing, since we’re on Brown Girls Climb [LAUGH], and anything else that we wanna add in. 

[LE]: Okay. 

[BL]: [LAUGH]

[LE]: I’m Laura Edmondson, that’s La-ra, not Laura, never Laura. I don’t know her, I’m La-ra. [LAUGH] 

[BL]: [LAUGH]

[LE]: I just wanna clarify that, cause no matter how many times I introduce myself I always get misnamed. Um, my pronouns are she/her and hers. I am calling in from Phoenix, Arizona, which among other tribes is occupied Navajo territory. Um, what else are we talking about? Climbing. Uh, climbing, I really enjoy climbing in Wyoming, Lander, Wyoming is some of my favorite climbing. Um, really can’t wait to get back there, when it’s safe. Um, what else were we gonna introduce, was that everything? 

[BL]: I think that’s a good, solid [LAUGH] for right now, yeah. Um, hi, everyone. My name [LAUGH], oh, what were you gonna say? 

[LE]: I was just gonna say, if anyone has questions, please put them in the question, there should be, like, a question button. Um, just because we aren’t gonna be keeping track of the chat the entire time, but we do wanna answer questions at the end. So please use the, um, question button. All right, Britt. 

[BL]: Yes. Yeah, so hi, everyone. My name is Brittany, my pronouns are she/her, and hers. Um, I currently reside in Maryland, also known as the Piscataway, [INAUDIBLE], and I, oof, I didn’t, I’ve gotten to travel a lot, in the sense of east coast climbing’s so much different than west coast, and I’ve kind of been clinging to west coast climbing a lot. Um, [LAUGH] and I kinda wanna continue exploring, especially rope, um, sport, um, it’s my jam. Um, but for east coast, I, I love going to, like, The New, um, I also love going to Coopers if you’re a boulderer out there, I like the boulder gym a little bit on, out, around there. Um, yeah. 

[LE]: Awesome, yeah that’s something that [CROSSTALK] sport climbing, cause that’s my favorite. Well. 

[BL]: [LAUGH] Yeah. 

[LE]: Come for me if you must, I enjoy sport climbing. 

[BL]: [LAUGH]:

[LE]: [LAUGH] I’m just looking over at our notes so we don’t forget anything. Cool, um. 

[BL]: Yeah. 

[LE]: I think Brittany already touched on this, but just to, like, clarify, we do not represent the entire Black community. We’re gonna share our experiences, our opinions, our thoughts and feelings, but we are two Black women, not all Black women. So, take that for what you will. Anything else that you wanna head off, Britt? 

[BL]: Um, no. Um, just in the sense of, you know, we’re kinda creating the space of honesty and opening up. So, um, some of the things we say may feel uncomfortable, but, you know, as we see in the burst of what’s going on in our society and the world, like, this is a good point to sit down and just step back and listen, um, and not try to compare of, and we’ll kinda dive a little bit more deeper into that, too. About comparing the, the relationship of the outdoors to Black women, and Black people, um, and white spaces. So, yeah that’s it. I think. 

[LE]: Awesome. Cool. Um, so yeah, there’s a lot of, a lot of heavy, heavy stuff going on right now. There’s a lot of important things going on, um, which is kinda what spurred this conversation, would you agree, Brittany? 

[BL]: Oh yeah, definitely, definitely. Um,  thinking about, you know, we’re going through a lot from dealing with a pandemic, um, and then also realizing that um, you know, the racial harm that’s happening in the Black community amongst, um, police, and the tiredness that we’re completely dealing with right now, um, has become a very, um, personal topic for everyone. Um, and thinking about, you know, from, and I kinda did, like a history lesson of just understanding why we are uprising, why we are having these conversations. Why are we creating this open and honesty, is because literally simply, we’re just tired. We’re tired of watching our, our brothers and sisters and community members being killed. We’re tired of not being able to be honest, and having to, um, hold ourselves back when sharing our stories, whether it’s in the workplace, whether it’s in everyday life. Um, and so a lot of things that’s going on, for some people, in, like, the outside community, are like, it’s overwhelming, they’re tired, um, they don’t understand [LAUGH] why, like, we’re still going on. Thinking about, if we’re going back in the ‘60s, ‘70s, and ‘50s, um, protests and uprisings lasted years, lasted months. Like this, we’ve only started doing this, what, May, I think, like the end of May an we’re what, June 17th? Like, we’ve only one a little bit of chunk, we’ve only chipped off a little bit of what’s to come. Um, and so now it’s a kind of explosion to everyone that’s happening. Of, from, you know, brands and businesses, to just workplaces to personal life and home life.

And, and that is something too, to think about, um, cause our home lives are completely different. So while everyone is saying yeah, we’re having these conversations with our families, you also have to recognize there are people in this world who are living um, amongst, uh, different nationalities, different races, who can’t really have these conversations, or they’re silenced in these conversations. So a great example is that we are both trans-racial adoptees. And so what that terms means is that we, we were raised outside of our own race. So, um, I was raised in a white household, and therefore as we’re educating others, there’s also that line of where we have to, like, we’re silenced by the other side, and so dealing with the mixture of, like, the support to the non-support is, is also very heavy during this time. Um, I dunno what you wanna add to this part as well. [LAUGH].

[LE]: Yeah. I, I think that that’s a really great point to raise cause I think, um, while a lot of allies are having uncomfortable conversations at home, and, like, pushing back with their own internal, with their own, like, family, which is really important and it’s super important work, um, I feel like, yeah, like those of us who don’t have Black family at home, it can be really hard to think about that as form of support. Um, so yeah. I definitely, I definitely agree with you. I’ve tried, you know, using my chosen family, my collective, like, friend slash family group to kinda find that support. What about you, what have you been doing to kind of find, um, that close connection like that, that makes you feel supported? 

[BL]: Yeah, definitely with chosen family and, you know, the closest, like in the last couple weeks, too, realizing, whether it’s in person or online, of just being able to be open and honest, and like, I’ve [LAUGH], when everyone checks in of, like, how are you doing, I’m just like I’m here, it’s another day. Um, and just being able to realize, like, it’s okay not to bottle up these emotions because, realizing that for years, and years, and years, when things like this have happened in our community, we’ve always had to bottle it up and like, go into work and, like, check it at the door because you know, you have to, like, put on that face and show up and be present. Versus now, since you know, we’re most, like, most of us are at home if you’re not working, and it’s sitting with you a little bit more, but you’re also being able to find those spaces, um, to express, um, and be part of what’s happening, too. 

So also know this, that what’s happening isn’t a moment, isn’t just like, a hashtag that’s being created, um, or a new blog post or anything. This is, uh, a movement that’s been happening, and it’s been happening for generations. Just to think about that. And we’re not even, we haven’t even dived into the outdoors yet [LAUGH], of thinking about this. But it’s happening for generations, and now it has burst. So, there’s this burst, and everyone’s just realizing, like, wow, I didn’t even learn this, or didn’t know this, or didn’t understand this. And it comes from many sections. From families, from the school system, because actually, if you realize as like, a teacher, understanding like, the textbook is a multibillion-dollar industry and they get to pick and choose what goes in textbooks and how the language is used in textbooks. So, if you look at a textbook from Texas versus a textbook from, like, California, what’s taught in those textbooks, varies, varies so much. While people are understanding, like, I’ve never known this, it’s probably because the textbooks that you had was very glossed over of that, you know, racism ended when we did the March on Washington type of thing. 

[LE]: Yeah, a hundred percent. I’ve had so many people um, cause I, I posted a lesson about, um, Juneteenth on Sunday, and I’ve had people in my DMs like I never knew anything about of this, I never learned any of this in school, I thought that racism ended with the Emancipation Proclamation, or I thought, or, not racism, I thought that slavery ended with the Emancipation Proclamation, and like, all these different things. And I’m just like yeah, this is basic history that just, isn’t taught, it’s completely left out. Um, yeah and to your, to your point about, like, we’ve been dealing with this for a long time, like, I had someone asking me like, oh, wow, it just seems like [INAUDIBLE] every day this week. And I’m like no, you’re just hearing about it this week. This has been happening forever. Like, why do you think we’re so mad? Why do you think that we’re so upset? Why do you think buildings are on fire? Because this has been going on for a long time, it’s just that now we have the attention. We have, um, people’s attention, we have the attention of the media, too, to help kind of amplify what’s happening. 

[BL]: Exactly. And I would love to know, like, as you can see, too, as well, like, there are so many different ways that people have been activating themselves. Whether, you know, as a reminder we’re still in a pandemic, so people are trying to find unique ways if they don’t feel comfortable going out in spaces. So, I’d love to know, like what are ways have you been being able to be proactive in this space and trying to push this movement forward? 

[LE]: Yeah, I kind of have, um, been activating online a lot. So primarily on social media, um, trying to just, like, bring attention to what is going on, because initially, when everything kinda popped off, I was not, like, in a location where I could, you know, be on the front lines. And then, like, even after I got back, my interest in being on the front lines, I just didn’t feel safe. It doesn’t feel like what my calling is. I respect, and love, and appreciate everybody who is up for that. Um, I have kind of taken more the back-end role, trying to get people caught up. Trying to get people on the same page so that when they are having these conversations with their friends, with their family, with their employer, they have the tools and the language that they need to have them in a way, like, making people feel confident that they can speak on this, on these topics. Cause I know that that’s what holds a lot of people back, it’s like oh I know that there’s an issue, I don’t know how to talk about it. So I’ve been trying to do a lot of educating and raising awareness about, like, the specifics, and why people are mad, and how long this has been going on, and things like that. As well as pushing forward, actions for people to take, whether it’s signing petitions or calling, um, lawmakers or, you know, things like that. 

[BL]: Exactly. And, and, you know, everyone’s role is needed. And so, especially during this time when you hop in and you realize you’re navigating and figuring out what your role is. And, like, for me, my role is very indirect. Um, I like to be on the grounds, I like to be where, um, we need, you know, action is happening. So, that is going to protests every day, and so I’ve been doing protests since, going to marches and rallies since May? Yeah, uh, since May 29th, and I think for me, I’ve watched the perspective of what’s happening, of the flow of people getting tired, um, from the heaviness of being, like, pepper sprayed, getting rubber bullets, um, getting hit by rubber bullets, to the idea of like, now we’re gonna turn this into like, a, you know, street fair. We’re gonna have street cars, and we’re gonna paint our road with Black Lives Matter and rename it, and, and like now it’s gonna be, like, all fixed and better, but it’s like no, you’re just kind of like, pacifying, so we’re gonna keep this going. Um, and I think it’s important that we’re hitting it in so many angles, because once, you know, things start reaching, the new normal, I guess is kinda the language we’re using right now. Um, I’m still trying to navigate that. Um, how we can start to like, actually make those conversations happen with lawmakers, happen in schools, happen at home. 

Um, and, yeah, it, it’s been interesting, um, being, like, on the grounds. Um, shoutout to, I’m gonna shout out to Rosalee and Brittany B., who have been on the grounds with me, um, we did, uh, what was it, a weekend ago where we were, um, in a sense taking a step back, but also still being in the lines by, like, bringing out, like water and food, and menstrual items. Um, I think that my favorite line [LAUGH] be [INAUDIBLE]. So, so some dude asked what menstrual items were, and Brittany was like they’re pads. Tampons. Like, was just, like, straight-faced, and [INDAUBLE] funniest, too, like I have no time for this. Um, but [LAUGH] but yeah, so, just like intertwining from, like, being able to be on the front lines, to being able to step back and caring for those who are on the front lines so, you know, going back and forth with that. Um, yeah. 

[LE]: Yeah, absolutely. That’s so necessary, and it’s something I hope that I can start being part of now that I’m back in, like, you know, a physical location where I can be helpful, is to do kind of that, that like, more direct support on the ground. Because getting, you know, water bottles and hand sanitizer and masks, and like, all those things that people need to keep themselves safe while they’re out there is something that I think that a lot of us can do, if being on the front lines is not an option. Um, yeah, awesome. 

Again, if anybody has any questions go ahead and send those to, like use the question button, rather than put them in a chat, because we’re gonna take all the questions at the end, and I don’t want anybody’s to get lost. 

Um, cool. So, what are some other things that you would like to see from our allies? How can, how can we have them show up for us? 

[BL]: Um, I feel like at this point, it’s like, the line of like, if you have been an ally, or have you, you know, stepped up and said I’m an ally, now that’s a turning point of like becoming an accomplice. So, like actually taking a lot of direct action, actually being able to step in and be that extra support when we need. Um, I think, you know, allies are still important, cause those are the people that are like, being able to recognize the language and the sources to be able to step up. And now those who have been allies should be moving on to that level of being like, all right, I know what to do, let me step in. I have access, I have privilege to spaces that you may not be able to. This is, let’s break it down. Um, as we’ve seen online, we, there are so many sources now, we don’t even need to name them, from podcasts to movies. Um, I will say with the movies though, be mindful that you’re not going towards, like, the movies of, like, I read an article about Netflix, like The Help was apparently uh, a top watched movie. The Help is not a movie that you’re gonna understand and learn from. The Green Book is a movie that you’re not gonna understand and learn from. Um, there’s a lot of movies that are, center around the white savior-ism perspective, and so learning how to be mindful of that. Learning about the books that you’re reading, and who you’re actually supporting when you’re reading these books. Is it by a Black author, or is it by a white author that is like, profiting off of, you know, our, our struggles and things of that nature? So, it’s like learning, like, as you’re getting the resources, also [VIDEO GLITCH FROM 21:12 – 21:18] [LAUGH]

[LE]: Yeah, I completely agree with that. So, like, if you are trying to educate yourself, if you are trying to, um, give to an organization, or to a person, like, do your research, because a lot of people just, are now learning that Black Lives Matter Foundation, is not the same as Black Lives Matter, and they’ve been taking a lot of money from the movement, because people just see Black Lives Matter and they click Pay. So, do your research, look at who you’re reading, who, who the authors are that you’re reading, who makes the movies that you’re watching, um, if you are truly trying to educate yourself, you wanna make sure that your sourcing from, um, Black authors, Black businesses, whatever it is, Black led movements. 

Um, yeah, one question that I’ve been asking a lot of people, or have just, like, been kinda generally been posting on my social media to get people to keep thinking about it, is what are you willing to give up? So that’s [CROSSTALK] a lot of people of people need to consider. And at first glance, like, I’ll share this example, a friend of mine, um, she posted her response on Facebook to that question. She was like so Laura asked me what I’d be willing to give up and I thought to myself, you know, like I don’t have money, I don’t have power, what do I have to give up? And then she realized, like, oh, I’m a nanny. I care for two little kids multiple times a week, I can give up some of my job security by having these critical conversations with them. So, there’s all kinds of things you can give up. Someone went into my DMs when I was posting about, um, like movies I recommended. They were like hey, if nobody, if somebody doesn’t have access to HULU or HBO or whatever, like, I’ll give up my log in for the weekend and they can use it so they can educate themselves. Like, consider what you are willing to give up because, Black folks, we are giving up things all day every day. [INAUDIBLE]

[BL]: Yeah, it’s a community [CROSSTALK]

[LE]: It’s a what? 

[BL]: A community effort. 

[LE]: Absolutely. One hundred percent. 

[BL]: Like, community effort. 

[LE]: So, consider what resources you have, um, because a lot of this issue comes down to just lack of resources on the part of the Black community. We’ve been historically denied access to resources, so replenishing those resources, giving up what you do have access to is so critical to this movement. If you wanna learn more about reparations I have a highlight about it on my page [LAUGH]um, that will go into it a little bit more. But yeah, that’s just, there’s so many ways. Just get creative. 

[BL]: Yeah. And like, thinking about how all of this kinda intertwines into the outdoor community [LAUGH] and outdoor industry as its own, um, kinda starting off and thinking about how, like, we’re climbers, and so we’re already dealing with, well, let’s, you know, every, every interest in the outdoors has a heavy load, historically heavy load, of not being able to have that access, um from being denied parks, you know we didn’t have access to parks until the 1950’s, and I say 1950’s, it was actually 1945, but 1950 is when Shenandoah finally decided that, hey, we’re gonna desegregate our parks. But even then, there was still issues of actually getting that access, cause often times, you would get pinpointed to, like, a campsite, and that campsite would get the lowest of the maintenance. So therefore, your family was still being able to recreate, but also recreate not as, um, as well or in a luxurious space as someone else. Or thinking about, um, as we said the movements that are happening, um, thinking in the climbing culture, like, if you think about The Valley, who was able to have that access to The Valley, and climb [LAUGH] you know, The Nose while there was, like 159 riots going up, going on around the country. And so, you know, there is an intertwining connection of what’s happening right now, and in the outdoors. And like, and something I also kinda did a thought question for people, is like, if we weren’t in a pandemic, would you actually understand and know what was going on in our communities? Would you have these wake-up moments? Or would you be, you know, on your, doing your projects, going out and filming, or would you, you know, kind of turn the eye and say oh, you know, I’m keeping politics out of the outdoors, type of thing? Which [VIDEO GLITCH FROM 25:28-25:32]

[LE]: I don’t know if you’re frozen or I’m frozen. 

[BL]: [LAUGH]

[LE]: Can you hear me? 

[BL]: Yes, I can hear you. 

[LE]: All right, I thought, I thought I froze for a second. Um, yeah, I think that that’s a really important point. Like, who has, who had, and like, even still today, who has the ability to take time off from work, to afford gear that’s oftentimes very, very expensive? Um, who has the resources, and the time, and the money to get out and go climbing? Who feels safe and confident going out into the middle of nowhere where you’re not gonna have cell phone service, um, in a potentially rural and conservative area? Who has the confidence to go out and do that? There are so many different factors that go into it. Um, yeah, I think that your point about, especially like the, the foundations of climbing specifically, cause that’s what you and I do, but I’m sure that’s lots of different outdoor activities have similar histories. Just like, who, who was distracted, who was able to be distracted by climbing because they weren’t in the street, like, fighting for their lives? And even to your point about, um, Shenandoah desegregating, you’re like [INAUDAIBLE] directed to a, the worst campsite, the least maintained campsite. And then to add on top of that, just, like, the general feeling of being unwelcome, or feeling unsafe. Because just cause just because it’s the law that you can be somewhere, does not mean that other people are gonna respect that, or allow you to feel welcome or comfortable. 

[BL]: Exactly. And, like, even then we, we, you know, as we look back in the history, and something that I appreciate about learning the connection of our history in the outdoors as being part of organizations, like that’s our focus, is that we research and, you know, appreciate what we’ve been doing. So, thinking about, like, we’ve always had connections to the outdoors. Thinking about Harriet Tubman, um, Benjamin Baker, Matthew Henson, Charles Crenshaw, like, we’ve had these connections to the outdoors. Oftentimes they’re not, you know, faced out in front, or on a plaque when you enter the national parks, or you have to dive in deep because they’re not, like, set in, um, textbooks, or in history books, but we’ve, we’ve always had this connection. Um, and there’s a, a thing also where I, I feel like we all hear often is that nature doesn’t see color, or, and so why don’t you just get outside? Like, nature doesn’t see color, get outside. Um, in my vision of, like, thinking [LAUGH] I’m like nature does see it. Nature has been part of our history, whether it’s been good history or bad history. Thinking about spaces for not only Black people, but thinking about spaces for the Indigenous, thinking about spaces for, um, Asian-Pacific, thinking about, like, nature has seen all of what has happened to us through, over time. So, nature does see color, nature does understand. Um, but also realize. What were you gonna say? 

[LE]: I mean. I was just gonna say, like, our skin is primed to be outside in the sun. Like. 

[BL]: Yes. 

[LE]: We’re supposed to be in nature. It’s like, part of our birthright. 

[LE]: Yeah. Yep. Yep, yep, yep. And, um, I see a lot of people talking about renaming climbs. I was like oh, I have so many things to say about that. Um, but yeah, it’s just this idea that people, like, I’ve learned that there’s gonna be people who will open their minds, and understand and feel comfortable and want to change, but there’s always gonna be that sector of old school people who don’t want that change to happen. Especially in the climbing community, there’s that stick, I made that first assent, that’s the name that I did it because I, you know, whether, half these climbs, let’s just be real, half these climbs are not only racist, they’re sexist, they’re ableist. Like, these names and, like locations. You know, I know that there’s an article coming out about the importance of renaming climbs, um, but really having to step back. Like, who decides to say that naming a wall the Slave Wall, and then naming a route 40 Acres and a Mule was going to inspire someone to go and look that up? And be like, you know what, I’m gonna look that up in history. No one’s gonna, when you’re out climbing, you’re not thinking about looking up something in a history book. You’re going out because you heard that is a stellar climb, this, like, has this dope crux, I’m gonna work on this. Like, you wanna, you wanna put it down cause it’s a classic. You’re not gonna go back home and be like, you know what? I’m gonna look that up on Mountain Project, I’m gonna look that up in the history books. No one ever does that. I mean, maybe some people do, I’m not gonna say. Some people may do. But, the, the idea of saying that you name this because it is an honor, is not an honor. So, like, you’re literally just, you’re just pinpointing that our traumas and our historical trauma is nothing to you. 

[LE]: Exactly. Yeah. Oh, that’s a phrase I heard in school one time, so I’m gonna use it for this climbing name. Or worse, I know what it means, and I’m gonna use it anyway. And I think [CROSSTALK] like, renaming something? All of these climbs are already renamed. The Indigenous people have [CROSSTALK] names for these places, and if they don’t have those written down because their history was stolen from them, I think they should be the ones to kinda, to, to lead that charge, you know? So, there’s, yeah, there’s a lot that goes into that conversation about, um, renaming climbs, for sure. Whoo. 

[BL]: Yeah. [INAUDIBLE] I know. [LAUGH] I was like, I got fired. Cause I was just like, ah. Um, but also just because, like, when you go to, like, these climbing brands and you see the comments of people like, well, you know, it was named this for that reason, or you know, it eats, it gets inside you. And also puts you in that pinpoint of just like, do I even have a space? Is it even worth to try to fight for a space to be recognized? Which, you know, yes. But also, sometimes you’re just like I’m tired. Like, [LAUGH] I, I, I just wanna walk away. I just wanna, I wanna enjoy going out to these crags with my friends just as much as you. I don’t wanna have to think about, alright, what is gonna be my exit plan if something happens? What if I break down? I notice that there’s confederate flags and Trump flags right there, so maybe I shouldn’t, maybe this is not gonna be an area. Make sure I have a full tank of gas, make sure people know where my pin points are. Like, there are people who are able to wake up and be like, you know what? I’m just gonna go, you know, to Seneca for, like, two, four-hour drive, it’s gonna be great. Whereas just, like, okay, let me just, like, plan this out first. 

[LE]: Yeah, I, I [CROSSTALK]. I think that that’s such a good point, because, like, climbing is like a leisure activity. Like, as much as like, climbing might seem hard, and it makes you feel exhausted, it’s like a leisure activity, it’s something people do for fun. But when you have to factor in all these other safety elements into it, it gets a lot heavier. 

[BL]: It is. Like have you had certain experiences, not only, whether it’s just like van life, or, um, oh, someone said Climbing Green Book, that’d be amazing. Um, [LAUGH] van life, or, you know, climbing, or backpacking, where you just, like, had to second guess, and like, have it sit with you for like, days, or even months? 

[LE]: Yeah, I mean, I think it was, was it last year at Color the Crag when we were all in the car and we, like, pulled off into a parking lot cause we were gonna make a phone call before we lost service, and then we looked over and, like, the convenience store where we had parked, there was a huge confederate flag. And so, we just, didn’t even put it in park, kept going and kept driving because it’s just like, I don’t even wanna sit in my car and take a phone call here because you have this big symbol of racism outside your store. 

[BL]: Exactly. And when people say, well it’s part of history, it’s part of my history, well it’s also part of our history, too. And that history isn’t like, pleasant, you know? [LAUGH]

[LE]: But it’s like, a blip in history, it was so short. The actual amount of time that it existed was so short that it’s like, really? That’s the one tiny little blip in history that you’re gonna cling to and claim that that’s your heritage? That’s a lot. You’re saying a lot. 

[BL]: Yeah. Yes. So, that’s like, kind of a good, like, going into point. When you’re thinking about when, you know, we have a lot of brands and companies who have, like, said, you know, they’re in support um, for our community, um, but it was a very, like, everyone rushed it, in the sense of the idea like yeah, we, we support you. How did that make you feel, in a sense? Like did you actually feel that support? Or is it like, where was this support when I wanted to work with you? Or like, where was this support when, you know, all of this was, this has always been happening, like, how come it’s now? 

[LE]: Yeah, um, my like, ultimate take on all of these brands, whether it’s outdoor brands, any, any brand. I knew whether or not Black Lives Matter before you posted your little black square with your sans serif BLM, whatever. Like, I knew what you thought already. I’m glad that [INAUDIBLE] you’re generally trying to be on board now, but I think that it’s important for brands, organizations, people, individuals, to recognize that they messed up in the past. Like, we believe Black lives matter. Yes, wonderful, I love that, thank you. But you need to acknowledge that up until this point, you have participated in Black lives not mattering. And it’s important for you to acknowledge that, and it’s important for you to do at least attempt to make amends for that. Because you cannot dismantle a system that you are actively part of unless you are willing to acknowledge your part in the system.  

[BL]: Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, um, I’ve, one brand which I was like, I wish all the brands did that, actually did a stat quote of like, who actually is working in their company, and like, was open and honest with what the stats were. And the stats were, especially for Black people being a part of, like, the highest part of the company was very, very low. And so also understanding and lumping in, you know, when we’re asking like who, who works at the, at this company that is Black, we are asking that specifically. It’s just like if someone in the Indigenous community was saying who in the Indigenous community is working for this company. Instead of lump sumping us with the POC, because that’s not really fully giving us a, a span of what’s going on. Um, it’s also the same with working with projects. This idea to, and this could even go into our own community as well, is that there’s always gonna be, um, a style of who they consider like, Black to showcase. Um, and, and colorism is real. And, um, and not only understanding that happens in our own community, too, um, but there’s always that, that, so that face that you often see in these brands and advertisements, and that doesn’t represent the whole of the Black community. Um, and like, I think about that all the time. Then there’s the magazines, and you know, we’ve written articles but, like, who’s on the front page of, like, Backpacker Magazine, who’s on the front page of Climbing Magazine that we can be like, I mean even a little kid being like I could be that one day. Or, you know, I wanna try that. It’s very, very slim. Slim to none. 

[LE]: Yeah, I saw a, um, a collage of like Netflix’s um, diversity, whatever, like

[BL]: Yeah, I saw that. 

[LE]: offerings. And it was all like some pretty light-skinned folks. I’m a light-skinned person myself. That’s suspect. We need to, if you’re not following dark-skinned Black people, then you aren’t getting the full story. That’s the best way I could put it. Like, colorism is real, my Black experience is different from somebody else with darker skin, their Black experience is different from somebody else in the community. This is part of what we’re saying, Blackness is not a monolith, so if the brand safe, or like, proximally white-ish, like racially ambiguous version of Blackness is the one that you’re comfortable with, then you aren’t done doing the work. 

[BL]: Yup. Yup. Um, and thinking about, like, our roles I’m, I’m like bouncing off the. I don’t know if you wanted to ask a question or not. [LAUGH] I’m just kinda like. 

[LE]: Um, we can take, we have like 23 questions. I don’t know if you can see the questions. 

[BL]: Oh, 23 questions? Oh yeah. Okay, yeah, we can, like, hop into those, as well. 

[LE]: Okay. Um, I’ll start from the earliest. Okay, what, what would you like to see white people who live in very rural, white, rural, outdoor getaway community do, um, to be more supportive? What would we like to see white folks in white, rural areas do to be more supportive? Also, if there’s any Black folks answering, or watching, that wanna answer these questions, please write in your answer in the chat, too, because we want a multitude of perspectives. What would make you feel more supported, Britt? 

[BL]: Um, that’s a really good one, cause I’m actually thinking about that. Like, for me, being in a space especially like the Eastern Shore, or if I go up to Seneca, New York, um, the idea of, you know, starting from the baseline. If you see someone coming in, yeah, dude, I was just gonna say, not say like oh my gosh, I’ve never seen one of you around here before, like, what are you doing here? Just a simple, like, hi, like, what are you doing? Like, actually conversations that you most likely often have, like, with other athletes or outdoors people. Like, making that foundation is clear. Um, oh yes, [INAUDIBLE] says counter all the MAGA signs with Black Lives Matter signs. Yeah, that’s something that’s really big here on the mid-Atlantic to the south. Um, you get a real big mixture of MAGA signs. Especially if businesses, like, there’s something that’s really great, too, when you are saying to, an [INAUDIBLE] saying, like, you welcome all, and you don’t take up with hatred, bigotry and if anything were to happen, that you would actually step in. Whether you have many people come in, like you’re willing to say, like, if someone does come in an something does go down, we’re able to step in and say, you know, we’re stepping up for you, we’re going to, um, make sure that you’re staying safe and feel comfortable. I don’t know, what about you? 

[LE]: Yeah. Yeah, I think, like, along with taking, having those conversations because that is a lot of the work. It’s unseen work. It’s not necessarily like, a flag you can fly outside your house, it’s having the conversations with the people you know are racist in your community. Um, if you see something that you think might be unwelcoming talk to whoever put it up and get them to take it down. Um, again consider what kind of, what, what power, what resource you can give up, whether it’s your own comfort, give that up. You know if you have to like, start a conversation with the person who runs the grocery store where you go to, whatever it is, just take on, take the initiative to make it a more welcoming space. Um, you can go, did you say all you wanna say about that, should we pick a new question? 

[BL]: Yeah, I did. What’s our time check? Time check. [LAUGH]

[LE]: Oh, we have almost 20 minutes left. 

[BL]: Sweet. 

[LE]: We have 18 minutes left. 

[BL]: [LAUGH]:

[LE]: Wow, these are, so many questions. Um, okay, here’s a good one. Might be hard to answer, but it’s something to consider. Uh, what would it look like for climbing brands or gyms to be accountable to Black climbers and organizations? 

[BL]: Um, I think first off, if you have done harm to a Black person who was working in your gym, and you kicked them out, and then you decide to do an apology, actually doing an, a, personal apology before making an open statement to the outside world. Um, because that’s just showcasing that you don’t really care, but you’re trying to save yourself so people come to your gym. We pick that up. [LAUGH]

[LE]: Wonder where that came from. 

[BL]: I dunno. 

[LE]: Yup, couldn’t agree more. If you’ve done harm to a specific Black person, start there. Um, I think additionally, you know, release your numbers now, do the work, and release your numbers again once you’ve made an actual impact. Cause everybody wants to show up right now. It’s like, you know, everybody’s all here right now. I wanna know specifically what you’re gonna do over the next weeks, months, years, and I want regular reports about how that progress is going. [CROSSTALK}

[BL]: Also adding an, oh. 

[LE]: You know, publicly. [LAUGH] 

[BL]: I was also adding in and thinking about, since we are in a pandemic and since we’re now, a lot of places are opening up in phase two, and so gyms are slowly doing, like fifty percent, and thinking about how those gyms in those spaces may had affinity groups that were meeting up, how can you still support them? So, could you block off a certain amount of time, like once a month for them to still meet up and hold that space? Um, are you willing to like, understand a little bit more, like, not only just with everything like, racially that’s going on, but also the pandemic side of how that has also affected our community, cause that is affecting our community as well, and many others. Um, but you know, there’s like, it’s kind of a bigger picture, too, to wrap around with. But, like also thinking about, like, how you can still support and hold a space for them. Um, if you are not thinking about if we were not in the pandemic, um, world, um being able to have, like, conversations, um, I think there’s actually, it was interesting. It was at a gym, um, and someone had a poster which is of, and it’s weird cause, it’s like, you know, there’s very few, um,  Black people that are showcased in like, climbing, and like, we all know them [LAUGH] like actually know them. And someone, like, ripped down the photo and said this was in here, and I didn’t appreciate it in the bathroom. And an employee was like okay, and like, balled up the magazine and, like, threw it away. And I was standing there and I was looking at my other friend, and I was like, mmmm, that’s not probably the most productive way of handling that, because that’s actually like, you’re kinda showcasing like, oh yeah, their, their image, inspiration, the work that they do doesn’t matter, it’s trash. 

[LE]: No, that makes total sense. 

[BL]: [CROSSTALK] having these conversations, being willing to listen in if you have a customer come up and say you had this incident and someone was, you know, gaslighting them, or like tone policing them, especially in the climbing gym, that happens all the time. Um, being willing to listen in and if you don’t, don’t feel like you have you have to come in with a fix right then and there, like how about hearing, listening, and sit in and slowly figure out what you can do. Cause sometimes when you try to do a quick fix, it’s not a quick fix, and it actually does more damage. 

[LE]: Yeah, I’ve been reading a lot about how like conflict avoidance is a tool of white supremacy, because it teaches you to avoid conversations that make you uncomfortable, especially when you’re the one that has to initiate them. So, leaning into that discomfort, and allowing yourself to, you know, feel awkward, and feel unsure, uncertain, and use it to learn, um, is really important, and it’s definitely something that every ally needs to get ready to do.

[BL]: Yep. 

[LE]: Look for some more questions. Um. I don’t know if I can read the whole question cause its kind of long. Um, it says what are the risks, what is lost, what is the damage, when the diversity of experience, I’m guessing is like, um, condensed into being just one thing. Um, cause they’re wanting us to talk about Blackness as a monolith. So, what do we, what is lost when we are diluted, just to one idea of what Blackness is? 

[BL]: Our stories. Like, simple enough, our experiences. Understanding and knowing that if the, the Black people that you’re working with all are college educated, like valedictorian, and like, higher up, understand you’re just showcasing one side of a story, and oftentimes you’re showcasing the side of what white people want to see of Black people. Like, oh, they’re academic and accomplished so therefore they’re good, versus actually reaching out and pinpointing, like, not everyone goes to college, um, you know, not everyone finishes high school. But they still have a power and, an active, a connection, into whatever, the sport that they got into. Or, you know, being able to have that open space when writing those articles or those posts, and, you know, and not, I don’t know, I guess feeling awkward, like it’s not a, a picture-perfect way of what you wanna see. Like, just, when you, when that happens it, it’s just erasing all of our stories and kind of like we said, you know, our stories especially from growing up, are as very different. And, you know, I try to be more open about it, too, so people understand. Cause that’s the thing. People, a lot of times, want you to come from a struggle story. 

[LE]: Yeah. 

[BL]: And if you come from a struggle story, then that’s how they’re going to, you know, create content and inspire other people. Which, not saying, not everyone doesn’t, but also know that there are a lot of people who don’t. And I can say this, too, cause this happened at a dinner that I spoke to. I had a famous, um, climber’s wife come up to me. And I try to keep my, like, spiel pretty simple. Like, you don’t really know my background, you don’t know who, like, my upbringing was. And she literally said I’m glad that you came out from that struggle that you had, and now you’re here. 

[LE]: [LAUGH]

[BL]: [LAUGH] And I just looked at her like, did I, did I say any of, of that? I did not, just because I’m in this room, and I’m like, one of three Black women does not mean that I came from, like, a hardship. Um, but also, like, not to say someone did come from a hardship. But, like, but you’re already pinpointing that. And so, I think we need to make sure that the stories that the, in our community that are pushing out there. That want to do contests, want to create work, wanna become athletes, are able to share their stories without having it be pacified. 

[LE]: Yeah, I think one thing, like, that the word that came up for me is dehumanizing. It’s dehumanizing to boil an entire population of people down to just one idea of what, like, one stereotype of what they should be. Like, when I adopted, when I got my dog, I, like, read a book about cavaliers, and it was like this is what you should expect from your cavalier. And that’s, like, that’s like what we do for animals or plants, this is what a plant should look like, and this is how they behave, and this is what they need. But, like, people have such variety, and if you are unwilling to recognize that, and represent all facets of Black humanity, then what are you really doing for, for Black people?

[BL]: [LAUGH]

[LE]: ]LAUGH] More questions. Um, okay. Somebody said save this as an IGTV. We’re gonna do our best assuming [CROSSTALK]

[BL]: Yes, we’re gonna try. [LAUGH]

[LE]: Um, how can gym members do better, or more, or more so what can gyms do to make sure we feel comfortable in their gym? How can gym members do better, or more so what can gyms do to make sure that we feel comfortable in their gym? 

[SILENCE 51:24 – 51:38]

[BL]: I was gonna say, there’s a lot of things. Cause I think about this, um, as like, a BGC leader perspective, and this is actually kinda what I do, is I sit down and have phone calls with gyms and ask them all these questions. Like, how do you feel about affinity spaces? Um, and if you’re not someone that’s a BGC leader, and you wanna start creating, you know, your own affinity spaces, like having the hard questions, like how do you support, um, you know, affinity spaces? What are you willing to do to support, like, discounted gear? Um, how would you manage a, uh, member who does not agree with an affinity space, and what would you come back with? And that’s a prime example, cause that’s actually happened to us at a gym, um, when BGC first started, a long, long time ago. We actually posted, like, a flier in the gym and some dude went off on a rant about how he was gonna sue the gym and this was, like, unlawful, and like, what if we decided to do something like this. And the thing was, we decided to, you know what, we’re not gonna intervene, we’re gonna sit back, and if the gym, and the people in the gym, actually take on this issue, then that’s, then we know that we have support. And lo and behold, the gym, like itself, and people actually took on that whole conversation. Um, it was, it was very interesting. This person tried to throw in Fredrick Douglas as like, like, some references [LAUGH], and I just wanted to, like, comment so bad. I’m like what are you talking about? Makes no sense. But also, this is not a case for every place. 

Um, so especially with gym members, I think there should be part of when you’re doing the, you know, walk through of, like, the gym, having, like, a conversation of understanding of no tolerance. Like, if this, like, creating an no tolerance zone, and having them, like, sign it as they become members, or like, when you do your day pass. Like, realizing like, the spaces that you’re entering in, um, needs to kind of be defined. Cause if you’re letting anyone in and, which, you know, most gyms do that, you’re allowing people, who, you know, walk all over other people, and or think that they own the space, which often happens, especially to Black women who love to climb in the gym. Cause sometimes not everyone’s able to have the access to climb outside. And so when you walk  into a gym and you’ve been climbing for, like, for so long or for so short, and you’re rocking on, like, V5s, V7s, and you have someone tell you that you’re doing it wrong um, and then, or coming up and trying to mimic, like, your climb and kind of like dismantle what you just did, um, it’s tiring and, and, like, taxing,.

[LE]: Yeah. I a hundred percent agree. Um, having folks sign community agreements when they come in for the first time, having those posted. Having those zero tolerance policies and actually following through on them is very important. [CROSSTALK]

[BL]: Absolutely.

[LE]: I think that that is really, those are really great tips. Um, and if you are a climbing gym member and you wanna know how to support people, look for community agreements. Look up zero tolerance policies along the lines of what we’re talking about, and follow them. Get your gym to implement them. It’s not hard and it’s not something that you have to create, they already exist. They already exist out there. 

Um, so we only have a couple minutes left, wanna plug again. If you wanna support our work, you can hit up @BrownGirlsClimb on Venmo. Um, Brittany and I have committed to donating a portion of what we make tonight to, um, some foundations that we believe in, and some individuals who need it. Um, yeah, we are gonna save this as Instagram TV if you missed the beginning of the conversation. Um, but yeah, I wanted to end on one last question. What have you been doing for self-care lately? [LAUGH]

[BL]: [LAUGH] That’s a good one. Um, I don’t know, sorry, that was a laugh of, like, I, I’m calling myself out because [LAUGH] I’ve just now decided to focus in on incorporating self-care, so a lot of it has been doing, like, if I’m not teaching, cause I’m also still Zoom teaching with my kids, um, hanging out with people and puppies, because puppies are super great [LAUGH]. Um, listening to music. Um, right now, I’m actually in the zone where my, like, my system, my record system would be set up, um, and like, yeah, sometimes I listen to Spice Girls on album [LAUGH]. Sometimes I go deeper than that [LAUGH]. Like, I had to tell, I showed Bethany, like the album, and had to go through the line of which Spice Girls’ who [LAUGH]. And, you know, um, giving my, giving that space of, like, allowing myself to feel what I’m feeling. So I was, like, saying like it’s okay to, like, cry. It’s okay to nap. Um, it’s okay to wake up, grab some coffee, and go back to bed because, like, your body’s showing you that it needs it. Um, yeah. And then also I’m excited because starting tomorrow, for the next five days, I’m doing my 200 hour yoga teacher training. So, my goal is to be able to create more healing spaces, especially in the Black community, and healing spaces using movement. What about you? 

[LE]: Beautiful. Yeah, um, I went through my yoga teacher training a couple years ago, um, so I wish you all the best in your endeavor, cause it’s gonna, I know you’re gonna love it, um, I know you love yoga. Um, I haven’t been doing much yoga. I need to, like, start incorporating that into my self-care. Um, yeah, I’ve actually been trying to lean on community care. Um, so close friends who I’ve told like, will you check in with me and make sure I’m drinking and eating, and all those things? Um, having other people, like, just check in on me has been the best. Um, finding community with other Black women, you included, um, just our group meetings [INAUDIBLE] you know, just like, help me stay connected and feel supported by people who I feel like can understand more closely than anyone what this experience is like. Um, so yeah, I took the, I took this week off from work, so I’m not working this week. Um, I’m fortunate enough to have the vacation time to do that. Uh, yeah, attending some Black, virtual Black healing spaces, things like that. Um, so yeah. I’m getting a two-minute warning which is very [CROSSTALK]

[BL]: Oh, two minutes. Well. 

[LE]: But, uh, [CROSSTALK] Any other, any other self-care items? Do we wanna try and squeeze in one more question? Somebody wants us to go [INAUDIBLE]. 

[BL]: Um, maybe we should say goodbye? 

[LE]: [CROSSTALK] A question about cancel culture. 

[BL]: I have a quote. 

[LE]: What’s your question? 

[BL]: Oh, my quote? 

[LE]: Yeah, your quote, share your quote, that’s great. 

[BL]: Oh, yeah, yeah. It’s a quote by Audre Lorde, who’s an amazing writer and in the last few years I’ve just fell in love with the work that she’s done and, like, spaces that she has created, and there’s something that, I have a Post-It wall in my office space that I use, and something that she said was, you don’t have to be me in order for us to fight alongside each other. 

[LE]: Hmm. That’s really beautiful. I think that’s a perfect way to end. You don’t have to be me in order for us to fight alongside each other. Wonderful. All right, everyone. Thank you all so much for tuning in, I super appreciate it. You can find me on Instagram @laura.edmondson. Brittany is @bleavitt8, is that right? 

[BL]: Yes. 

[LE]: @bleavitt8. 

[BL]: Yeah. 

[LE]: Um. 

[BL} Bleavitt late. Half the time I don’t remember my name. [LAUGH]. I’m the worst. 

[LE]: [LAUGH] Follow [CROSSTALK]. We’re hoping to have conversations like this. I hope that you all got some things out of it. Um, we’re on Venmo @BrownGirlsClimb, we’re gonna be donating some of that money. Um, yeah, thank you all for the great questions, thank you for participating. Um, love you all so much. Oh my gosh, I love seeing all these names I recognize. 

[BL]: Yeah. 

[LE]: Okay, we’re about to get kicked off, but again, this will be saved on our page, so come back and watch if you’d like to. 

[BL]: Yes, and please, please, please, also check out all the other amazing, share, Black stories that are happening amongst the Instagram community. There’s so many that’s happening, I –

[END]